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Stucked with a New condo, What should I do

forzani

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Hi All the experts here:

I bought this NUERA condo back in 2007 in Calgary, when the house price was at its highest. The price in the purchase contract is 440K

The new condo will likely take possession next June. But the current market price in the adjacent building with same floor plan is on MLS for only 370k. So I am under water by about 70K. My down payment is 40K already (10%).

I talked to the sales for several time asking if they could adjust the price. I was told not possible.

What should I do? Walk away? Would I be sued? What else can I do?
 

TerryF

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I was in the same boat but hired a lawyer to review the contract and see if there was a way out of the contract. They found the out I needed, contract was voided, and I got the deposit refunded. A friend also got out of their contract. Get a lawyer who specializes in contracts. My lawyer told me that most contracts have deficiencies of some kind or another. If your contract has a deficiency it may be enough to void your contract.

If you just walk away, you will lose your deposit and you could also be sued for the difference in $$ if they have to sell it to someone else at a lower price. So it your case, it could mean you owe the builder another 30k if they successfully sue you!



QUOTE (forzani @ Oct 25 2009, 02:36 AM) Hi All the experts here:

I bought this NUERA condo back in 2007 in Calgary, when the house price was at its highest. The price in the purchase contract is 440K

The new condo will likely take possession next June. But the current market price in the adjacent building with same floor plan is on MLS for only 370k. So I am under water by about 70K. My down payment is 40K already (10%).

I talked to the sales for several time asking if they could adjust the price. I was told not possible.

What should I do? Walk away? Would I be sued? What else can I do?
 

gwasser

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QUOTE (TerryF @ Oct 25 2009, 08:34 AM) I was in the same boat but hired a lawyer to review the contract and see if there was a way out of the contract. They found the out I needed, contract was voided, and I got the deposit refunded. A friend also got out of their contract. Get a lawyer who specializes in contracts. My lawyer told me that most contracts have deficiencies of some kind or another. If your contract has a deficiency it may be enough to void your contract.

If you just walk away, you will lose your deposit and you could also be sued for the difference in $$ if they have to sell it to someone else at a lower price. So it your case, it could mean you owe the builder another 30k if they successfully sue you!


First of all, if you had attended REIN workshops and listened to Don Campbell you probably would not have bought such a condo. If you did hear Don and decided to buy anyway, then it was you who gambled on yet higher prices to come and it will be you who will have to pay the price.

I can understand that you may wish to find loopholes in the purchase contract, because that is what you have signed (a contract). I would too. But in the end, you just try too shove your losses onto someone else, i.e. the builder. It is not the builder`s fault that you bought and he would not have profited from any further price increases. So why do you expect him/her to carry your losses?

I don`t like builders, but neither do I think it is right to walk away from contracts that you bought on speculation and now that you are presented the downside, you won`t accept the consequences.

Sounds harsh. But it is reality. All investors with leverage (and you used extreme leverage), lost net worth in this downturn. It only becomes a real loss when they/you sell. Since most REIN investors do invest based on positive cashflow, they can hold on to their purchases, some of which may not look brilliant right now, and wait for better times.

I suggest that even if you cannot get out of your contract, you try to hold on and over time you will likely grow out of your not enviable position.
Once, I bought in real estate that a year later had fallen by 50% and I was severely underwater (every investor takes his/her lumps). I ensured I had the best financing possible and started working on reducing my debt to manageable levels. Unfortunately, their was no REIN forum that provides advise how to optimize your position. As long as you keep up with your mortgage and loan payments, chances are that the banks won`t bother you and once the real estate market recovers your current problems will be of the past plus you have a valuable education from `hard knox`.

There is alway`s something good that comes from bad situations. Did you know that I met my wife through my troubles? She was a prospective renter and although she did not want to rent, she wanted to go hiking. Amazing thing was, after she found out that I was in deep financial sh.... she still went out with me. That is something you can build on! And now we`re still together after nearly 25 years. Not that marriage is eternal bliss or unending happyness. But, we`re still together on our way to a beautiful sunset [in Belize].

Hope this helps
 

BrianPersaud

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I think if there is any chance Terry`s lawyer can help Forzani he has a responsibility to his family to take it. Mistakes like this can set you back years.
 

Mystique

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QUOTE (TerryF @ Oct 25 2009, 07:34 AM) I was in the same boat but hired a lawyer to review the contract and see if there was a way out of the contract. They found the out I needed, contract was voided, and I got the deposit refunded. A friend also got out of their contract. Get a lawyer who specializes in contracts. My lawyer told me that most contracts have deficiencies of some kind or another. If your contract has a deficiency it may be enough to void your contract.

If you just walk away, you will lose your deposit and you could also be sued for the difference in $$ if they have to sell it to someone else at a lower price. So it your case, it could mean you owe the builder another 30k if they successfully sue you!

Hi Terry, i read this post with interest. By the way which lawyer did you use?
 

EdRenkema

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QUOTE (forzani @ Oct 25 2009, 01:36 AM) Hi All the experts here:I bought this NUERA condo back in 2007 in Calgary, when the house price was at its highest. The price in the purchase contract is 440K

The new condo will likely take possession next June. But the current market price in the adjacent building with same floor plan is on MLS for only 370k. So I am under water by about 70K. My down payment is 40K already (10%).

I talked to the sales for several time asking if they could adjust the price. I was told not possible.

What should I do? Walk away? Would I be sued? What else can I do?

You want an expert opinion? I guess you could say I am an expert
.
I was in that same position back in 1989, I way over paid for a prebuilt townhouse on a 6 month closing. By the time I closed the values dropped 30% and fell another 10% in the following years. I held the property for 8 yrs at negative cashflow.

Here are some of the numbers: purchased $140K in 1989, sold $100K in 1998.
It took till 6 months after closing to get it tenanted, initially my rent was $900 monthly, my payments for PITI were $1400.
I also was unemployed for much of that time, yet somehow every payment was made.
I took out a personal loan for the downpayment of $30K at 10% and paid all of that back 3 years later.

Whoever is giving you advice on how to void your contract really doesn`t get it, a contract is a legally binding document is it not?
You made a mistake now act like an adult not a spoiled child and deal with it.
 

forzani

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Thank you TerryI never thought of having a lawyer to parse the contract. I am very excited to know there is still a chance. Your successfull story encourages me. Thank you.

Can you please PM the lawyer`s contact?


Thank you Godfried

I am not a REIN member. My friend told me this is a great place to ask for advices. She is right. A lot of expert advices came back in a matter of less than 24 hours. Your story of lossing money yet gaining love is very touching. Life is hard but at the same time, full of surprise. Thank you.


Thank you Brian

Your understanding message warms me up. No matter what happens in the end, I will remember I can always get comforted by people like you. Thank you.
 

JohnS

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QUOTE (BrianPersaud @ Oct 25 2009, 01:41 PM) I think if there is any chance Terry`s lawyer can help Forzani he has a responsibility to his family to take it. Mistakes like this can set you back years.

First off, I have to say that I`m glad I`m not in this position, as I`m not sure which way I`d go. I`d like to think I`d suck it up and take it, but it`s easy to say that when I`m not the one that will have to dish out an extra 30 grand.

However, as to the argument about a responsibility to his family, you could also argue that it`s Forzani`s responsibility to model appropriate behaviour to his children (if he has any), and show them what being true to your word really means. To my mind, that`s a more important lesson to make.

Have a good one, all!

JohnS
 

Nir

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Forzani, what a disaster! To be honest you winning this case will probably cause the builder damage 100 times lower than you losing the case will cause you.
Therefore, not politically correct but I hope you find a good lawyer like Terry`s so you do not have to pay the developer, and maybe get your money back. Good luck, Neil
 

TerryF

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Amazing....... someone writes in for help and they get a lecture instead! Forzani this is a good forum but there are always going to be those who would rather pass judgement and moralize instead of answer the question you posted.

First off, get a lawyer to simply review the contract. If there is anything not right with it, they will find it. If there isn`t, they will tell you that too but at least you will know that avenue is closed. During my early consultations with the lawyer, I was told that I needed more than a technicality or frivolous loophole otherwise the builder would fight me in court and probably win but not before I had spent thousands of dollars in legal fees plus paid the legal fees for the builder.

When my lawyer reviewed my contract, there were 2 major problems with it. Either one of them could have been a legal, legitimate and moral way to void the contract. We simply requested the deposit back and the builder didn`t put up ANY resistance, likely because they knew they had messed up. If it was a ridiculous request, they would have fought back.

When it comes to doing the `moral` thing and keeping your word, blah, blah, blah .............. if the builder didn`t do what they contracted to do, then they didn`t keep their word! It is not immoral to find your way out of that contract if they didn`t meet their obligations so don`t let anyone lay a guilt trip on you!

BTW,,,to those who lecture and moralize..... it`s funny how the developers/builders seem to find ways to cancel contracts when it suits them. This is pretty common in rising markets when they will do (or not do) something like wait out a deadline they could have met, just so they can legally cancel the contract and then resell the property at much higher prices. This was happening with alarming regularity during the boom, much to the dismay of the purchasers. I doubt the builders lost any sleep over it either. Forzani, you shouldn`t lose any sleep either.

Lawyer I used was from B.C. as that was where the property was. You will need an Alberta lawyer as the laws are different. At least that is what they told me. I don`t know anyone in Alberta to refer you to.
 

TerryF

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Hi Terry, i read this post with interest. By the way which lawyer did you use?


Intially used Thompson & Elliott in Vancouver, then switched to Porter Ramsay in Kelowna as that is where the property was located. Location only matters if you are going to wind up in court as it keeps the legal costs down.
 

JohnS

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QUOTE (TerryF @ Oct 25 2009, 11:24 PM) Amazing....... someone writes in for help and they get a lecture instead! Forzani this is a good forum but there are always going to be those who would rather pass judgement and moralize instead of answer the question you posted.

When it comes to doing the `moral` thing and keeping your word, blah, blah, blah .............. if the builder didn`t do what they contracted to do, then they didn`t keep their word! It is not immoral to find your way out of that contract if they didn`t meet their obligations so don`t let anyone lay a guilt trip on you!

BTW,,,to those who lecture and moralize..... it`s funny how the developers/builders seem to find ways to cancel contracts when it suits them. This is pretty common in rising markets when they will do (or not do) something like wait out a deadline they could have met, just so they can legally cancel the contract and then resell the property at much higher prices. This was happening with alarming regularity during the boom, much to the dismay of the purchasers. I doubt the builders lost any sleep over it either. Forzani, you shouldn`t lose any sleep either.

Just a couple of things here, Terry. You complained that a lot of people chose to "moralize instead of answer the question you posted". However, his very first question was, "What should I do?" They (we?) gave their advice on what he should do. Just because it wasn`t 100% financially rooted but rather looked at the bigger question doesn`t make it moralizing. It just makes it advice that was different than your own, but at least this way he was exposed, I`m guessing, to a wider array of opinions than just `see if your lawyer can get you out of it`.

Also, I`m wondering what the builders didn`t do that they had promised. They built a place, I`m assuming it had the correct number of bedrooms and bathrooms....so what didn`t they do?

As for the last point....Personally, I don`t let others` (ie. the builders` ) actions dictate what my morals are, and I doubt a lot of the other posters in this thread do either. Whether you do - well, that`s up to you.

Have a good one!

JohnS
 

housedoc

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QUOTE (forzani @ Oct 25 2009, 04:36 AM) Hi All the experts here:

I bought this NUERA condo back in 2007 in Calgary, when the house price was at its highest. The price in the purchase contract is 440K

The new condo will likely take possession next June. But the current market price in the adjacent building with same floor plan is on MLS for only 370k. So I am under water by about 70K. My down payment is 40K already (10%).

I talked to the sales for several time asking if they could adjust the price. I was told not possible.

What should I do? Walk away? Would I be sued? What else can I do?

Congratulations on your speculative purchase!

What was your plan? How is it financed?
Were you going to rent it out for 4-5K/mo? Hoping to sell it for a profit on completion? Live in it? Hold long term?
What were you thinking?

How much does it matter that you`ll be underwater going in, and how deep are you willing to go?
Do you have other properties?

No advice.
 

TerryKruse

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First off, builders are investors as we are and they have cost overruns and pay too much for land too. Just look at the bankruptcies happening in this sector or the projects that can`t go ahead at this time.

That being said you should have a lawyer look at your contract to see if there is a loop hole.

If not, the Nuera project is in a fantastic location next to the LRT and sooo close to downtown so if you choose to rent this as a furnished rental you should be able to get a better rent than if you simply rented it unfurnished. If you can afford to hold on to it for a bit longer you may be able to at least break even in the longer term.

Just another possible solution.
Terry
 

RedlineBrett

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QUOTE (housedoc @ Oct 26 2009, 07:26 AM) Congratulations on your speculative purchase!

What was your plan? How is it financed?
Were you going to rent it out for 4-5K/mo? Hoping to sell it for a profit on completion? Live in it? Hold long term?
What were you thinking?

How much does it matter that you`ll be underwater going in, and how deep are you willing to go?
Do you have other properties?

No advice.

Oh Brother


Thank you for adding nothing to the thread with your condescending post. Hopefully whoever reads this thread remembers this the next time you ask for advice.
 

jwilbrin

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---------------------------------------------- Quotes ------------------------------------------------Gwasser:I would too. But in the end, you just try too shove your losses onto someone else, i.e. the builder. It is not the builder`s fault that you bought and he would not have profited from any further price increases. So why do you expect him/her to carry your losses?

EdRenkema:
Whoever is giving you advice on how to void your contract really doesn`t get it, a contract is a legally binding document is it not?
You made a mistake now act like an adult not a spoiled child and deal with it.


JohnS:
However, as to the argument about a responsibility to his family, you could also argue that it`s Forzani`s responsibility to model appropriate behaviour to his children (if he has any), and show them what being true to your word really means.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While I agree as investors (and as human beings) we always need to conduct ourselves with honesty and integrity in both our personal and professional lives; however, we need not be naïve.

First of all Forzani mentioned he went back to ask for a reduction in price, not to get out of the contract, but was denied any dialogue regarding reduction.

This my friends, is the first thing a smart businessman and investor WOULD DO! If you are ever to succeed in business or real estate investment, which let`s not forget is a BUSINESS, you should never just roll over and take it. The first thing you learn in the real world of business is contracts are negotiated and re-negotiated every day.

The reality is every smart business out there, whether it be a real estate development or oil and gas company, has in the last year sent back all contracts and quotes to be re-quoted and re-submitted. They are asking all contractors and suppliers to re-quote and adjust contracted prices based on the current economic environment. Many are saving hundreds of thousands of dollars by doing so.

I would bet money that Cove Properties, the developer of Nuera, has done exactly this. There is just no way a successful company like Cove would proceed with contracts and quotes negotiated back in 2006/07 when contractor prices were at their peak.

Forzani, you need to negotiate your fair share of the savings. I commend you on having the courage to ask for a price reduction; most people would be too scared or embarrassed to even go that far.

The mistake you made however, was talking to the sales department; you will get nowhere with them. That`s like going into a store and asking the clerk to give you a 50% discount they just don`t have the authority or interest to do so. Discounts can ultimately affect their commission. You need to escalate it to an upper management level.

If it were me, I would be constructing a well thought out argument for price reduction based on the premise that they are probably receiving cost savings. They will deny it but just move ahead with confidence that they are.

Try as hard as you can to resolve this on your own first. If you are not successful spend the money and consult a lawyer.

When negotiating with them remember to remain calm and confident. Do not argue from a place of fear or anger. If you feel they are starting to dismiss you simply say you will be proceeding with your lawyer. Try to have a lawyer lined up so that you can throw a name out at the same time. They`ll know you mean business if you say you`ll have your lawyer contact them and then tell them which lawyer they can expect to hear from. Tim Platnich is a great real estate litigation lawyer in Calgary, pricey but at least worth a consultation.

If the developer is realizing savings and not willing to pass those on to the investors, they will not want that to come to light and it certainly will if there is a lawsuit. Chances are they will try to avoid any lawsuits and will negotiate.

I wish you the best of luck and above all, learn as much as you can from this lesson and come out stronger.

If you can win this battle on your own, there is nothing you cannot do.
 

RedlineBrett

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QUOTE (jwilbrin @ Oct 26 2009, 09:43 AM) If you can win this battle on your own, there is nothing you cannot do.

Great post above... some fantastic advice in there IMO!
 

gwasser

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Hi Forzani,

Looks like you got quite a response, from firebreathing to symphatizing.
Hopefully this gives you some ideas to proceed.

As shown there are many angles to look at your problem. When you all boil it down it sounds to me that you:
[list type=decimal][*]have signed a purchase contract that right now puts you in a loss position[*]that you should try to find out, with the help of a lawyer, whether you can get out ot not. However, if you do end up in court, your legal bill may be in the thousands (and this is experience talking) and there is a good chance you won`t win (others have tried). So only get advice don`t go to court without thinking about all the possible financial outcomes and the risks you`re taking![*]Contact the builder, possibly go all the way to the top and see if you can get a price reduction.Sell the property at a significant loss OR...Try to rent the property and sit through this roughspot. This approach may require some creative thinking. Suggestions were made the property is too expensive for a straight rental. It was also mentioned it has a super location. If you can`t rent it out for a good price but your current residence could then consider switching residences. A lot also depends on your overall financial condition. There are also tax consequences. a) First of all when you sell your condo at a loss you can claim a capital loss against future gains. b) if you switch residences - any profits on you current residence are tax free. You may also want to check with an accountant whether moving into the condo as your new residence could be deemed as disposal of your condo at a capital loss and that since after that it became your residence all subsequent cap gains are tax free. If that doesn`t work, consider using a corporation in te transaction. Anyway, whatever you do, you should obtain some professional tax advice.[/list type=decimal]Hope this helps and I wish you, probably along with all other posters (even the cranky ones amongst us), all the best and don`t give up on real estate.
 

housedoc

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QUOTE (RedlineBrett @ Oct 26 2009, 11:22 AM) Oh Brother


Thank you for adding nothing to the thread with your condescending post. Hopefully whoever reads this thread remembers this the next time you ask for advice.

I think the answers to my questions are pertinent and might expand the conversation beyond the obvious "get out of the contract".

You`re free to dislike the way I ask them, but I don`t think blackballing is cool.
 

Mike Milovick

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Godfried makes a great point. You speculated. You didn`t invest. Speculators get burned all the time. Flippers are in the same boat. I have noticed that there are not too many good "flip" shows on tv lately either.

I don`t know much about the Calgary market, but I can`t see this "investment" meeting the REIN first funnel requirement either.

I would chalk it up to a painful learning experience.

Mike

QUOTE (gwasser @ Oct 25 2009, 12:22 PM) First of all, if you had attended REIN workshops and listened to Don Campbell you probably would not have bought such a condo. If you did hear Don and decided to buy anyway, then it was you who gambled on yet higher prices to come and it will be you who will have to pay the price.
 
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