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Refusing to rent to smoker in Ontario ok?

RArora

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I currently have an application from 3 individuals looking to rent our townhome. while doing my research on them online I came across an interview given by one of them as a budding rapper/singer that his days of dealing drugs and working the streets are over." I am not at all comfortable with this and want to know if I can refuse the application on the basis that they are smokers and we are looking for non-smoking tenants. Im in Ontario.

Thanks
 

Tony Miller

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QUOTE (RArora @ Jun 18 2010, 06:20 PM) I currently have an application from 3 individuals looking to rent our townhome. while doing my research on them online I came across an interview given by one of them as a budding rapper/singer that his days of dealing drugs and working the streets are over." I am not at all comfortable with this and want to know if I can refuse the application on the basis that they are smokers and we are looking for non-smoking tenants. Im in Ontario.

Thanks

Hi, good catch finding the online interview !

I would just tell them that tenants have been found for the townhouse. I know that this is dishonest but would you rather have a potential drug dealer living in your rental?
 

invst4profit

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When turning down applicants you do not give a reason other than "sorry we are going with a more qualified applicant".
That is not lying it is the truth and when you find that applicant they will get the unit.
 

ontariolandlord

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QUOTE (invst4profit @ Jun 18 2010, 07:09 PM) When turning down applicants you do not give a reason other than "sorry we are going with a more qualified applicant".
That is not lying it is the truth and when you find that applicant they will get the unit.
They can still file. And ruin your life.

Invest4profit, you no longer rent out residentials in Ontario. Why don;`t you explain why you went to low cost trailer rentals? You come across as a residential LL in Ontario when you are not.
 

RArora

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So Ontariolandlord what is your suggestion to the problem?
 

invst4profit

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Apparently Ontario Landlord doesn`t reject applicants. They might "file" if he did.

I still have one building I rent to a residential tenant, can I still be in your club. Please. Or do I need 5, 10 or a 100 to qualify.
What about we take the total number of doors we have owned in a life time and multiply that by the number of months we have owned them and see who has the biggest number. No wait that won`t work, this is the Internet and there is no way to tell if someone is lying.

Would you also reject the advice of a member of AA on the merits of drinking because they don`t drink any more? Or an ex smoker on smoking ?
Nothing worse than a quitter I guess.
 

JohnS

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QUOTE (invst4profit @ Jun 18 2010, 11:54 PM) Apparently Ontario Landlord doesn`t reject applicants. They might "file" if he did.

I still have one building I rent to a residential tenant, can I still be in your club. Please. Or do I need 5, 10 or a 100 to qualify.
What about we take the total number of doors we have owned in a life time and multiply that by the number of months we have owned them and see who has the biggest number. No wait that won`t work, this is the Internet and there is no way to tell if someone is lying.

Would you also reject the advice of a member of AA on the merits of drinking because they don`t drink any more? Or an ex smoker on smoking ?
Nothing worse than a quitter I guess.

Greg, this is your best post ever!

That, and I basically agree with your earlier advice. The standard REIN mantra (because the rejectees have nothing to go after you on) is, "I`m sorry, but we`ve decided to rent to someone else."

And when they go "But why? What about.....?"
"I`m sorry, but we`ve decided to rent to someone else."

Have a good one, all!

JohnS
 

RArora

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So, basically I don`t need to give a reason and should just advise them that at this point we`re going with someone else or with another applicant.

Thanks everyone. The reason I am a member of the REIN forum is that I can speak to and get advise from other LLs-and one can do so in this part of the forum without paying extra money, which is useful too. If all one can do here is put others down and advertise their own site, even if their site might be very useful, its not nice nor is it mature. Im sure there`s room for many more here and elsewhere without putting others down unnecessarily.

All your answers have been helpful and I appreciate the time taken to respond.

Thanks!
 

housingrental

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Perhaps you could explain to the forum why you are consistently writting negative posts and attacking people for no apparent reason or benefit to yourself or others?

If you beleive the posters response was incorrect, why not provide a better solution? You instead have choice to attack someone who was giving of there time trying to help another person, while not actually providing any help to the person who needs it.

QUOTE (ontariolandlord @ Jun 18 2010, 11:14 PM) They can still file. And ruin your life.

Invest4profit, you no longer rent out residentials in Ontario. Why don;`t you explain why you went to low cost trailer rentals? You come across as a residential LL in Ontario when you are not.
 

ontariolandlord

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QUOTE (housingrental @ Jun 19 2010, 07:57 AM) Perhaps you could explain to the forum why you are consistently writting negative posts and attacking people for no apparent reason or benefit to yourself or others?

If you beleive the posters response was incorrect, why not provide a better solution? You instead have choice to attack someone who was giving of there time trying to help another person, while not actually providing any help to the person who needs it.
Because there is no `solution.` It depends what type of applicant you are dealing with. You can simply `not provide an answer`, and they can still file (no cost) and you have to prove that you did not discriminate. It can be a long battle to prove your innocence. And an expensive one.

Contact Barbara Hall and/or visit with the OHRC. There are many cases against private landlords already, and the legislation is less than a year old. They view the "no reason" defence as the courts view someone refusing to take a breathalyzer during a spot check.

And asking for background information on whether or not someone providing answers is a landlord who is likely to face the question is valid. I have been in the business since the early 1980`s. And you?

Have your read the action law and the reasoning behind it? Legally this is the paradigm under which the OHRC operates:

Adequate housing is essential to one`s sense of dignity, safety, inclusion and
ability to contribute to the fabric of our neighbourhoods and societies.3 As the
Commission heard in this consultation, without appropriate housing it is often not
possible to get and keep employment, to recover from mental illness or other
disabilities, to integrate into the community, to escape physical or emotional
violence or to keep custody of children.

It`s very Orwellian and all landlords should be aware of what is going on, as there are real landlords sucked in already.
 

invst4profit

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[quote name=`ontario landlord` date=`Jun 19 2010, 10:42 PM` post=`87902`]And asking for background information on whether or not someone providing answers is a landlord who is likely to face the question is valid. I have been in the business since the early 1980`s. And you?________________________________________________________________________________
______________________________
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If this is directed at me I can tell you I have been in the business since the 80s as well and my family has been in the business since before the second world war. Row houses on Kent street in Ottawa.

As far as having to face the "question" is concerned although on average I only change 3-4 tenants per year (now) I have far more to risk in my choices than you likely face.
I have to chose very carefully because once I get a tenant they are likely to stay 10-20 years. Not only do I need to chose a tenant that suites my needs they must also fit in with the rest of the community. My existing tenants are of paramount importance to me because I own a community not just a house or box that tenants live in.
Whether a tenant pays there rent or not is the least of my concerns. The wrong choice on my part can disrupt the lives of a lot of people.

My choices are not influenced by the fear of what might
happen if I reject an applicant but rather the concern over what will
happen if I pick the wrong one. Smoking and pets are not major concerns but individual social standards and personality play a major roll in my choices. How comfortable would you be accepting or rejecting applicants on that bases. Not so much I would guess but in my business you either grow a pair or watch your investment go to hell.

As far as Barbara Hall is concerned unless she plans on applying to be my tenant I have very little concern for her goings on nor should the vast majority of other LLs. We do not discriminate we make business choices that 99.9% of the time should never personally impact a LLs life. Business wise I believe .1% is fairly good odds.

The bigger picture is of far greater influence in my business decisions than the bogeyman so I guess I will continue to take my chances and run my business with my tenants as my first priority.
 

NicKStaR

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I would say that you have a non-smoking policy for this particular location.
That is a legitimate reason to refuse an application, as it does not violate any Human Rights code.

There are 15 grounds of discrimination under the Code:
race, ancestry, place of origin, ethnic origin, citizenship, sexual orientation,
sex, disability, colour, creed, age (18 and over, 16 and over in housing),
marital status (including same sex partners), family status, receipt of
public assistance (in housing) and record of offences (in employment).

I believe that you should always provide a "legitimate" reason for denying one`s application, as the absence of a reason could lead to the assumption of discrimination.

I also believe that due diligence in regards to finding the right tenants is just as important as your due diligence in choosing your investment properties. Being mindful of discrimination, tenant screening is a very important aspect of property management.

I do not yet own any properties, nor do I have any experience in property management. This is my opinion based on logic and common sense, and not of experience.

I will soon be starting my own journey of real estate investing, and will look for valuable opinions from this board, be it negative or positive responses. I think that any and all opinions should be encouraged whether they tend to agree with our opinions or not. There is rarely a true "right" or "wrong" answer. There are always situations with their own uniqueness. Having said that, there is no one here that has dealt with `every` situation. Hence, experience in the field of LandLording is of limited value depending on the situation. Hence, attacking one`s opinion based on their experience should generally be frowned upon in this board, and all boards for that matter.

Let us remember to remove emotion from our decision and rely on fundamentals.

It is my humble opinion that both sides of this debate are correct
- One side is saying you "should" refuse, and don`t give a good reason for denying them.
- The other side is saying you open the possibility of complications following this advice.

If I were you, I would take both opinions, which are both equally valuable, and form your own decision. My take on your situation would be the following:
Inform your applicants that you are denying them occupancy based on your non-smoking policy. This should satisfy both sides of the argument. This should also satisfy the legitimacy of the denial of application, as non-smoking policies are becoming more prevalent in every area of everyday life.
If you are willing to go the extra 10%, offer to help them find a suitable location. Remember also, we wish to create a win-win situation in every relationship.

This is just my humble opinion to help you base your decision.
 

RArora

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Very well put NickStar. I appreciate you taking the time to write that.

Thanks and best of luck in your RE endeavor in the future.
 

housingrental

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Thank you for your response Ontariolandlord
Though you`ve again ignored part of it.. namely:

Perhaps you could explain to the forum why you are consistently writting negative posts and attacking people for no apparent reason or benefit to yourself or others?
 

Berubeland

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I`m a property manager and I also lease up lots of apartments that is my primary business. I also spent many years doing evictions for a rental agency i worked for and then a low income/vacancy problem building in a bad area.

OntarioLandlord is being alarmist. 99.9% of tenants have no interest in pursuing any such action in my experience. Your rental property might also be hit by a tornado but what are the odds?

My rental process goes like this I show the apartment if they want the place I will neither show it to someone else or try to rent it in any way until the application is either accepted or denied. Every application is evaluated on a combination of my gut feeling and the merits of the application.

I do not ever give any reason and if I don`t get a good feeling from that person I say that they are not accepted. Period. You have to have the strength of your own convictions. There is no requirement to give a "reason" and I do not give any.

Since I have been in business I have developed a strong client base of landlords who hire me to rent the apartments in their own homes. As Greg said there is a lot more to the tenancy than just filling the spot with someone who is paying rent. For example I am currently renting out an apartment for a 88 year old senior. He wants no pets, no smoking, a senior, a woman and he wants the relationship to be amicable. His last tenant I placed paid the rent very well but didn`t speak to him for 2 years. One day when I go show the place I will meet someone who matches him perfectly. I will "feel" this. I can`t teach it to anyone else its a combination of experience and evaluation.

As a property manager I can assure you that you can have perfectly good tenants that will make your life miserable because they are mismatched and do not get along. I once managed a house with a christian fundamentalist on the first floor, Seniors on the second floor and some Goths on the third floor. Everyone paid their rent but every day I was fielding phone calls from one of these tenants. So matching tenants to the culture of the property is essential to peace of mind.

So I would say don`t give a reason at all.
 

NicKStaR

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QUOTE (Berubeland @ Jun 22 2010, 09:20 AM) OntarioLandlord is being alarmist. 99.9% of tenants have no interest in pursuing any such action in my experience. Your rental property might also be hit by a tornado but what are the odds?

Are you speaking from a legal point of view, or your "luck" and "odds" so far? Because, all it takes is one lawsuit for you to quickly change your position on this matter. I`ve never lived in a home that went up in flames, that does not mean that I would ever disregard home fire insurance... no matter what the odds are of my home/investment catching fire.

QUOTE (Berubeland @ Jun 22 2010, 09:20 AM) I do not ever give any reason and if I don`t get a good feeling from that person I say that they are not accepted. Period. You have to have the strength of your own convictions. There is no requirement to give a "reason" and I do not give any.
If you can not provide a legitimate reason, that is because you are being discriminatory in your selection process.

QUOTE (Berubeland @ Jun 22 2010, 09:20 AM) For example I am currently renting out an apartment for a 88 year old senior. He wants no pets, no smoking, a senior, a woman and he wants the relationship to be amicable. His last tenant I placed paid the rent very well but didn`t speak to him for 2 years. One day when I go show the place I will meet someone who matches him perfectly. I will "feel" this. I can`t teach it to anyone else its a combination of experience and evaluation.
So basically, you are limiting access to housing based on age and sex, in addition to your own personal "feel" of the applicant (which no doubt includes more discriminatory attitudes)?!

QUOTE (Berubeland @ Jun 22 2010, 09:20 AM) I once managed a house with a christian fundamentalist on the first floor, Seniors on the second floor and some Goths on the third floor. Everyone paid their rent but every day I was fielding phone calls from one of these tenants. So matching tenants to the culture of the property is essential to peace of mind.

So I would say don`t give a reason at all.
Now it sounds like you take Religion into account for approving applications
I`m sorry, but your tenant selection process seems very discriminatory to me, and you are very lucky to have avoided any legal repercussions due to this. I would strongly recommend that you review the Human Rights code in your province, as you will come across that one person that will pursue legal action arising from your application denials.

Here`s some interesting info from the Ontario Human Rights Code:

4.1 Refusal to rent

While there are many housing providers who provide equal opportunities to all people applying to rent their premises, there are others who may deliberately refuse to rent to people identified by Code grounds. This type of direct and intentional discrimination generally arises from negative attitudes and biases.

Many housing providers, particularly smaller landlords who may be renting out portions of their own homes, are under the false impression that they may pick and choose tenants in whatever way they see fit. However, the Code applies to all rental housing arrangements in Ontario. Therefore, once a housing provider decides to offer a rental opportunity to the public, they must do so in a non-discriminatory way. A landlord or other housing provider who denies a rental opportunity to a person because of a personal characteristic that is identified by the Code is vulnerable to having a human rights claim filed against them.

A refusal to rent most commonly takes place in the form of discriminatory advertising and discriminatory tenant screening.

4.1.1 Discriminatory advertising
When listing rental opportunities, landlords may not exclude people identified by the Code. For example, phrases in rental advertisements such as “suits a working person” may indicate that people who receive social assistance or are unable to work due to a disability, or other Code ground, are not welcome or need not apply.

Other forms of inappropriate advertising include statements that a building is:

* “adults only”
* “adult lifestyle”
* “not suitable for children”
* “suitable for a single person or couple”
* “working people only”
* “professionals only.”

Discriminatory advertising that targets households with children may be more subtle. Where a landlord is attempting to discourage or deny applications from families with children, they may use specific euphemisms in their advertising.

Statements that a building is:

* • a “quiet building”[140]

* “not soundproof”
* “geared to young professionals”

may, however, when coupled with a refusal to rent to a family with children, indicate that discriminatory attitudes related to family status played a role in the refusal.[141]

Section 13 of the Code prohibits the publication or public display of any notice, sign, symbol, emblem or other representation that indicates the intent to discriminate. Signs that include phrases such as the ones set out above may be in breach of section 13 of the Code.
 

PropertySolution

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NicKStaR, rather than quoting your entire post I am just going to say I disagree with almost everything that was in it. In accordance with these opinions, bylaws, ordnances, codes or whatever they are, makes it impossible to deny accommodations to anyone unless you have had a bad experience with them personally. I have always and will continue to use my instincts and experience as part of my application processing criteria. Further, part of my decision is based on whether the applicant will be suited to the existing Tenants. For instance, I am not about to place a 21 year old heavy metal band member in a 4-plex with 3 homes filled with seniors, thats just asking for headaches and complaints. Just as I would not place a Pastor and his wife in a 4-plex with 3 Heavy Metal band members. Its not discriminations rather its common sense.

If these are the laws for Ontario Landlords it sounds to me like Tenants run the whole show. Why would a Landlord allow their business, investment or livelihoods to be so heavily governed and blatantly obviously not in their favor. Seems to me there is no meeting half way here.

The more and more I read about Ontario`s take on residential laws the more it would make me look elsewhere to do my investmenting. And I am starting to get a deeper appreciation of why you people have such a heavy and stringent application process.

Good Luck and God Bless you all LOL
 

Berubeland

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Nickstar,

Feel free to take your dogma back to the ontariolandlord forum instead of trying to attack me here.

In Ontario there is no requirement to disclose a reason to turn down a rental application unlike certain States for example.

The rental business is one of the most regulated everywhere with laws changing from place to place. Ontario is far from unique.

Here`s a lawsuit based on discrimination in Yellowknife http://www.metronews.ca/ottawa/canada/arti...ver-fear-of-god

If that`s the bar I have to cross to get sued I`ll be perfectly fine thank you.
 
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