No bailout for teh Car Industry

[Jack]

QUOTE I know lots that work for `Generous Motors` as we call it.
If what you`re saying is true, and I have heard that before, it`s not the union`s fault that the GM executives are poor negotiators. As a union, their mandate is to bring the most compensation and the best working conditions to their members. If they`ve been the beneficiaries of inflated salaries, who`s fault is that? Again, the GM executives! They agreed to the terms, they ratified the contract. In no way is it the fault of the workers for being paid what they are - would you decline a salary increase if offered one? Would you say, gee, thanks boss, but I think I`ll pass, because I`m not very valuable to this company after all. Pretty easy to see who`s at fault here, no?

By the way, why would you, of all people, possibly be against this bailout? Maybe the stimulant could provide you a tenant for your condo! That writeup`s sure done you no good (as predicted)!

 

[EdRenkema]

QUOTE (Jack @ Nov 25 2008, 07:33 PM)
If what you're saying is true, and I have heard that before, it's not the union's fault that the GM executives are poor negotiators. As a union, their mandate is to bring the most compensation and the best working conditions to their members. If they've been the beneficiaries of inflated salaries, who's fault is that? Again, the GM executives! They agreed to the terms, they ratified the contract. In no way is it the fault of the workers for being paid what they are - would you decline a salary increase if offered one? Would you say, gee, thanks boss, but I think I'll pass, because I'm not very valuable to this company after all. Pretty easy to see who's at fault here, no?




Exactly my point I applaud the workers for obtaining gainful employment while I feel no empathy for those who complain about losing on what were unstainable working benefits. I know many of those union employees in fact who have no use for the unions but as a requirement of that gainful employment they were forced to join the 'union' as far as I see it a totalitarian system of coercion. I wouldn't work for those unions or under the conditions imposed by those 'GM executives. They made their bed....

 

[EdRenkema]

That writeup`s sure done you no good (as predicted)!

Whatever gets you through your day - takes a real man to take a shot when someone is down.
Many years ago in college I would complain to my trainer about my roomate who was self centered, arrogant, and generally reprehensible and me wanting to tune the guy.
My trainer would reassure me saying don`t worry the guy will get what is coming to him. Funny thing was about 6 months later it was my trainer who (unknowingly) ended up booting that same roomate out the door in an establishment where he was getting out of hand. I`ll never forget my roomate showing up with a shiner and looking sheepish.
What comes around goes around, everybody has to do what it takes to get them through their day, and the law of reciprocity never fails.
I`ve recently received some gratis advice from my mortgage broker which will likely net me some equity giving him no gain. I`ve also recently received much support and advice from other members who may also not have lived a `charmed` life.
I never forget any of these and always respond in kind.

 

[SeanMcAllister]

QUOTE (Jack @ Nov 25 2008, 08:21 PM) No. Have you?Yes, I have. I work at the Toyota plant in Cambridge.


QUOTE (Jack @ Nov 25 2008, 08:21 PM) Wrong. The guys operating the assembly line don`t have the same responsibilities as the executives. They don`t make the kind of decisions that carry with them the kind of consequences that the executives do; ergo, they are not paid like the executives are. You`re compensated, in society, by the complexity and consequences of decisions that you`re responsible for. Unioners don`t decide where to build, they don`t decide where to source product, they don`t decide on design, they don`t decide on marketing, they don`t decide on the capital structure, they don`t decide on anything. They just do the work.


For someone who has never even been in an Autoplant you seem to know an aweful lot about how they work. The UAW/CAW have(had) substantially more say than you give them credit for. Unions do have a say in process design, to an extent they do have a say in where product is sourced from ie other unionized suppliers and they have a lot of say in a great many other areas and rightfully so. At Toyota the TMs are involved in every step of the process it is one of Toyota`s strengths. Bad attitudes and and us vs them mentality has been pervasive through D3 for decades. The workers on the floor have some fault in the current predicament as much as management.

But by your statement above then if the D3 turn it around then it will be exclusively management who should be rewarded and not the guy on the line. "They just do the work"

Sean

PS the people on the line have the most responsibility of all; theyre responsible for quality. The biggest responsibility of all.

 

[Jack]

QUOTE PS the people on the line have the most responsibility of all; theyre responsible for quality. The biggest responsibility of all.

But it`s not "quality" that`s brought them down. It`s things like extremely low/negative profit margins, extremely high debt levels (resulting in extremely high interest payments), extremely high, ongoing R&D expenses as a requirement to stay competitive, and slumping demand. Are things like that driven by the union? No.

 

[SeanMcAllister]

QUOTE (Jack @ Nov 26 2008, 09:02 AM)
But it's not "quality" that's brought them down. It's things like extremely low/negative profit margins, extremely high debt levels (resulting in extremely high interest payments), extremely high, ongoing R&D expenses as a requirement to stay competitive, and slumping demand. Are things like that driven by the union? No.






I am not really in a position to answer that nor do I have all of the facts; but I would say that if you as a consumer have a choice between a vehicle that continually breaksdown and one that does not which would you choose? This is part of what has brought them down. Which in turn leads to the low/negative profit margins and high debt levels as people stop buying your cars. But you keep making tonnes of Focus' at a loss so you can keep your CAFE numbers in line while you sell the heavily profitable SUVs. (That was a management decision; so what happens when people stop buying SUVs because gas is 1.40/L?) Ongoing R&D cost I would think would be similar accross the industy as cars are being commoditized and constant reinvestment is a necessity just to keep up.



I dont want to make it sound like it is all of the Unions fault as it is not. But I work with some former employees of the D3 and some of the stories Ive heard about the union is shocking. Now all of that being said the management at those companies did nothing to fix the problem and just went along business as usual until a few years ago. If you read the article above they (GM & Ford, Chrysler seems to still be a basket case) have made some real changes in improving supplier relationships, quality and I hope the relationship between the man on the line and management. The problem they have run into is a sudden drop in consumer demand almost overnight coupled with an accute inavailabilty of credit while atleast GM & Ford were right in the middle of their turn around.



my 2 cents,



Sean

 

[bigbabba]

QUOTE (Jack @ Nov 26 2008, 08:02 AM)
But it's not "quality" that's brought them down. It's things like extremely low/negative profit margins, extremely high debt levels (resulting in extremely high interest payments), extremely high, ongoing R&D expenses as a requirement to stay competitive, and slumping demand. Are things like that driven by the union? No.






poor quality is exactly what brought them down.. everything else you mentioned is the result of poor sales due to poor quality of vehicles. unions, also have something to do with it..take a look at pensions given out and hourly rates for people who dont have much education. Most people working on the lines will end up with a $10/h jobs after the plant is shut because they have no other skill sets. That's where the fear is.