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More difficult lending environment ?

LeighF

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QUOTE (Dan_Eisenhauer @ Sep 17 2008, 10:33 PM)
Thomas is the third person in a week who I has advised those with an LOC to max out the LOC, and to bank the money just to ensure it is on hand when it is needed.






I am wondering if it would be safe if I transfered my HELOC to my high (LOL) interest savings account instead of a money market fund. Would it be just as safe?
 

Thomas Beyer

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QUOTE (kanabel @ Sep 17 2008, 10:19 PM) Could they ask money back that has already been used, in my case for these purposes?
read the agreement you signed .. it WILL say in essence "We the bank in our sole discretion can call this LOC AT ANY TIME WITHOUT WARNING" ..

so yes, they may .. or may not .. depends on the environment .. but I`d say that risk is much higher today than perhaps even 3 months or certainly 3 years ago ..
 

mcgowan

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We have our heloc at prime, and our 1st mtge is coming due. We were considering combining the mortgage and LOC, however in talking to our bank they told us that if we wanted to refincance and increase the LOC we would not get it at prime, simply because they are not offering that anymore. They suggested we leave things as is!
 

xcrider

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Using your LOC to purchase an M.M. or other units of short term holdings, could work well if one were to follow a cash flow proforma and purchase their investments in accordance with their liquidity requirements, keeping the spread within a couple of points. Allowing for fee`s, account charges and, ones individual circumstances it should be affordable...however lets not lose sight that an LOC is still a demand loan of sorts, so what happens if it`s called?
 

dwb

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QUOTE (thomasbeyer2000 @ Sep 17 2008, 09:23 PM)
After this week's stock market crash expect mortgages to be EVEN MORE difficult to get .. especially for investors and sub-prime borrowers and any non-first home !! This will affect real estate prices .. downwards !!




When the stock market crashes and the stock market is volatile, the appeal/demand for real estate investing increases!



For at least a couple of reasons:



1) Volatility Scares Investors: A dollar invested in the stock market is a dollar not invested in real estate. Real Estate's lack of daily swings and daily anxiety as experienced recently in the stock market suddenly appeals to those who just threw in the towel in the stock market. Demand for real estate escalates (& real estate prices?) with stock market volatility and doom/gloom. In such a volatile stock market investing arena like we currently have, many people subsequently drop stocks and all their stock turmoil troubles & invest those remaining dollars into the historically stable real estate.



2) Control (Over Your Investment):
When things like the sudden, out-of-the-blue announcement of government takeovers of legendary wall street firms, the sudden out-of-the-blue announcement that 150 year old wall street firms are suddenly removed and have vanished into backruptcy, the sudden out-of-the-blue announcement of no more short selling and other sudden rule changes, the realization by the stock investor becomes "Who is in control of my money?".



As the value of their investment bounces up and down like a yo-yo, it dawns on them that their are not in control of their money. They've given their money to a market with market forces much higher than them and relinquished all control. They are literally at the mercy of forces beyond their control, with only the ability to press the sell or buy button.



Real estate however despite some management effort, allows for control
. Control to increase or decrease their amortization. Control to raise rents. Control to seek additional financing. Control to add an extra unit or renovate for extra income. Control to negotiate a lower interest rate and enjoy additional cashflow each month etc..etc...
 

TommyK

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QUOTE (dwb @ Sep 19 2008, 08:26 AM) When the stock market crashes and the stock market is volatile, the appeal/demand for real estate investing increases! For at least a couple of reasons:1) Volatility Scares Investors: A dollar invested in the stock market is a dollar not invested in real estate. Real Estate`s lack of daily swings and daily anxiety as experienced recently in the stock market suddenly appeals to those who just threw in the towel in the stock market. Demand for real estate escalates (& real estate prices?) with stock market volatility and doom/gloom. In such a volatile stock market investing arena like we currently have, many people subsequently drop stocks and all their stock turmoil troubles & invest those remaining dollars into the historically stable real estate.

2) Control (Over Your Investment):
When things like the sudden, out-of-the-blue announcement of government takeovers of legendary wall street firms, the sudden out-of-the-blue announcement that 150 year old wall street firms are suddenly removed and have vanished into backruptcy, the sudden out-of-the-blue announcement of no more short selling and other sudden rule changes, the realization by the stock investor becomes "Who is in control of my money?".

As the value of their investment bounces up and down like a yo-yo, it dawns on them that their are not in control of their money. They`ve given their money to a market with market forces much higher than them and relinquished all control. They are literally at the mercy of forces beyond their control, with only
the ability to press the sell or buy button.

Real estate however despite some management effort, allows for control
. Control to increase or decrease their amortization. Control to raise rents. Control to seek additional financing. Control to add an extra unit or renovate for extra income. Control to negotiate a lower interest rate and enjoy additional cashflow each month etc..etc...

I agree whole heartedly. This is why I am now investing in real estate. No more paper assets for me (at least not the volatile ones!)
 

Thomas Beyer

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QUOTE (TommyK @ Sep 19 2008, 12:20 PM)
I agree whole heartedly. This is why I am now investing in real estate. No more paper assets for me (at least not the volatile ones!)


well this is perhaps a bit over the top .. there are some quality companies and REITs out there .. or a basket called ETFs ..



expect to be paid for your time .. and not always is a direct piece of real estate better than a quality paper asset !!
 

DonCampbell

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It is really important to note that the HUGE fluctuations (down 500 points one day and up 878 another) in the market is a `financial` crisis not an `economic` crisis.
That being said, because of the issues that banks and governments will have in selling their bonds on the open market (the US bond yield hit 0.02% at one point this week!). Speaking with some of the less mainstream banks, we are witnessing a reluctance to fund rental properties for the next 6 months or so (unless they are CMHC insured).

Mainstream banks will continue to tighten up the lending criteria for at least the next 6 months as they try to make their balance sheets look stronger (so as to get their stock prices back up). That is why, once again, that you MUST follow the new Sophisticated Investor Checklist - even for a simple renewal or secured LOC.

The REIN System, checklist and full Program of `How to Get The Bank To Say YES`
was designed to work in these tougher borrowing environments so now it is more important than ever to get back to the system that worked and add the brand new Sophisticated Investor Checklist to your system.

These times also prove the importance of having a relationship with a VETERAN mortgage broker who has the relationships with the banks at the level where they can push a deal if it is right. This year`s final Quickstart in November is going to be the best ever... just because of the turmoil. During times of uncertainty only unbiased information makes the difference between winning and losing. We`re going to help make everyone in attendance a winner.

It is within turmoil that opportunity to stand out and win is hidden (p.s any one else notice that a lot of big money including Warren Buffett, are out there on a buying spree while others run and hide.........)
 

Nir

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Hello Thomas et al,

I wanted to share the feedback I got today from my banker - a nice guy I work with from RBC. I applied for a mortgage, it does look like I will be approved but I will only know for sure next week (cross fingers :) ) .

He did not require any additional information from me following the initial meeting when I provided Don`s binder. (I am trying to follow Don`s and Peter`s recommendations meticulously though when preparing the binder).

HOWEVER, I was surprised to hear that I might NOT have the option to get a variable rate(!) only fixed! Earlier this year I took a variable rate mortgage from the same bank. I mentioned today I strongly prefer variable. Only next week I will know for sure if it is really not possible (at least in my case). will keep you updated...

Has any of you ever been mortgage approved but not allowed to take a variable rate (only fixed)?

Regards,
Neil
 

dwb

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QUOTE (investmart @ Sep 19 2008, 06:27 PM)
Has any of you ever been mortgage approved but not allowed to take a variable rate (only fixed)?



Regards,

Neil




No this is not right.



That banker is trying to get you into a fixed because they want their branch to show better profitability because their bank is losing on the spreads when clients go variable right now. Either that or they don't know what they are doing at all and don't know the difference between variable or fixed. Every client at RBC has the right to choose variable or fixed. Politely ask to be referred to their manager or something... I'm confident you will end up with variable if you insist on it.



Let us know how it goes.
 

terri

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I asked my mortgage broker if any of his clients were having problems with loc`s being reduced and he said no, he`s not heard about this from his cleints (based in Ontario) wonder if this problem if banks recalling LOC`s is more predominant in the west than in ontario based on the fact that prices have dropped there and bankers worried that property no longer worth the total amount of loan.

any one else have an opinon on east vs west in terms of loc`s being reduced? no difference? so far in the thread I`ve only read about this from westerners, anyone in Ontario, (that invests in Ontario) have the banks reduce their loc`s?


curious,

Terri
 

kanabel

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QUOTE (terri @ Sep 19 2008, 09:45 PM) I asked my mortgage broker if any of his clients were having problems with loc`s being reduced and he said no, he`s not heard about this from his cleints (based in Ontario) wonder if this problem if banks recalling LOC`s is more predominant in the west than in ontario based on the fact that prices have dropped there and bankers worried that property no longer worth the total amount of loan.

any one else have an opinon on east vs west in terms of loc`s being reduced? no difference? so far in the thread I`ve only read about this from westerners, anyone in Ontario, (that invests in Ontario) have the banks reduce their loc`s?


curious,

Terri

It might be. The only thing I know for sure is that when my friend went to RBC branch here in Edmonton to sign for $25k unsecured LOC (as this amount was approved few days earlier), branch manager showed up along with banker, showing him letter from BoC where it`s stated that banks are strongly advised to lower their limits due to recent markets turmoil. Therefore his limit was reduced to $5k. Scarry enough for me since I already have larger sums of LOC, most used as downpayments so far, and would be potential disaster for me to recall it.
Cheers
Dejan
 

DonCampbell

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This trend away from offering variable rate mortgages is a trend that you are going to be witnessing across Canada. SOme banks don`t even offer them anymore.


QUOTE (investmart @ Sep 19 2008, 03:27 PM) HOWEVER, I was surprised to hear that I might NOT have the option to get a variable rate(!) only fixed! Earlier this year I took a variable rate mortgage from the same bank. I mentioned today I strongly prefer variable. Only next week I will know for sure if it is really not possible (at least in my case). will keep you updated...

Has any of you ever been mortgage approved but not allowed to take a variable rate (only fixed)?

Regards,
Neil
 

Thomas Beyer

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QUOTE (terri @ Sep 19 2008, 09:45 PM) I asked my mortgage broker if any of his clients were having problems with loc`s being reduced and he said no ....
most broker`s do not do LOCs just mortgages ..

Who told you that only in the West the prices have dropped and in the east they are flat or up ?

As I stated earlier the most affected LOCs are unsecured ones or business LOCs .. but also secured LOCs .. and look for banks to improve their balance sheet and find cash in many locations .. such as the reserve for unused LOCs !!
 

OlegP

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I will share some of the things I am well familiar with as a Credit Risk Manager at Citibank. I manage credit card portfolios, not mortgages and lines of credit, but the approaches are very standard in the industry.

As a trend, delinquencies in Canada are on a rise, as recent layoffs and cancellation of jobs in Ontario and Quebec, and significant cooling in the West, plus inflation left people with all the debt they accumulated during the good times and less income overall to pay for it. Thus people start missing payments. Bankruptcies are also on a rise year over year. So Risk teams are now tasked with limiting the exposure of the bank to potential losses.

For existing unsecured LOC products banks might increase the interest they charge to offset incremental losses, or do a popular exercise called Credit Limit Decrease (CLD). In this exercise they try to tackle accounts which show the potential of turning bad. Who typically falls into this High Risk category? Those with current or recent delinquency on their LOC, credit card, or even on other financial institution`s LOC or credit card. So do your utmost to NOT go past due on ANY of your credit products.

Next are accounts with high utilization (especially over 75%). I always recommend NOT to utilize your LOC that high. Example: if your Line of Credit has a limit of $10,000 - try not to have a balance which exceeds about $7,000. It is a red flag!

Of course, your FICO score (Beacon or Empirica) and Bankruptcy score (BNI or Horizon) usually are a factor. These scores are sensitive to delinquency, high utilization, many credit inquiries.

So watch out if you are running high balances, opening too many credit cards, loans, LOCs, shopping around for credit (inquiries), not paying bills on time! You are more likely to get a letter from your bank informing you that they lowered your credit limit. As a typical industry practice, though, they will not reduce your limit below your current credit balance. You have to be in a really poor standing (90+ days past due) for them to call you and say "Your account is closed. Pay up!"

Secured lines of credit are based on the equity in your house, so to what I said above add a factor of what area you live in. If house values start going down substantially, do not be surprised if the bank chooses to reduce your credit limit, or in some cases close this line down.

For new unsecured lines of credit, expect FICO score requirement to go up. Anybody serious about investments should avoid letting their FICO score slide below 680. Again high balances (a healthy balance is around 30%), late payments, too many new credit cards, too many inquiries will pull you down. TDSR is also a consideration. Don Campbell explains this ratio very well in his book and in Quickstart program, so read up and ensure that the sum of your monthly minimum payments as a percentage of your monthly income do not come close to the danger zone of 40%.

I hope this informaton will be useful. I only touched on LOC products, but same principles apply to mortgages. I think it is safe to assume that tightening will be happening in mortgage underwriting strategies as well, so as Don pointed out - sticking to the sound practices ("the Binder") and making bank`s decision easier is a the approach to take.

Please feel free to ask questions.

Oleg Pereslegin
 

Thomas Beyer

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QUOTE (DonCampbell @ Sep 19 2008, 04:49 PM) It is really important to note that the HUGE fluctuations (down 500 points one day and up 878 another) in the market is a `financial` crisis not an `economic` crisis.A financial crisis can lead to an economic crisis quite easily .. as we say the "run on the banks" this week in the US and an unprecedented attempt by a conservative, less-government-is-good-government US government bail out 2 mortgage companies, one investment bank, an insurance firm and have them propose to create a market for bad debt !

Expect banks to be a lot more careful with their cash both in the US and in most countries, including Canada !!


QUOTE (DonCampbell @ Sep 19 2008, 04:49 PM) That being said, because of the issues that banks and governments will have in selling their bonds on the open market (the US bond yield hit 0.02% at one point this week!). Speaking with some of the less mainstream banks, we are witnessing a reluctance to fund rental properties for the next 6 months or so (unless they are CMHC insured).
Much of the conduit mortgage market in Canada has disappeared. Correct. This will change in time, but yes, today and for the next while CMHC is the way to go, even for 80% or lower loan-to-value !


QUOTE (DonCampbell @ Sep 19 2008, 04:49 PM) Mainstream banks will continue to tighten up the lending criteria for at least the next 6 months as they try to make their balance sheets look stronger (so as to get their stock prices back up). That is why, once again, that you MUST follow the new Sophisticated Investor Checklist - even for a simple renewal or secured LOC.
Correct .. and alss expect buyers and seller to take a LOT more time to be approved for a mortgage .. what used to be 2 days is now easily 2 weeks or longer .. so expect sales to take longer and less people to qualify .. thus: less money available .. thus falling real estate value for some time until money supply increases !


QUOTE (DonCampbell @ Sep 19 2008, 04:49 PM) The REIN System, checklist and full Program of `How to Get The Bank To Say YES`
was designed to work in these tougher borrowing environments so now it is more important than ever to get back to the system that worked and add the brand new Sophisticated Investor Checklist to your system.

These times also prove the importance of having a relationship with a VETERAN mortgage broker who has the relationships with the banks at the level where they can push a deal if it is right. This year`s final Quickstart in November is going to be the best ever... just because of the turmoil. During times of uncertainty only unbiased information makes the difference between winning and losing. We`re going to help make everyone in attendance a winner.

It is within turmoil that opportunity to stand out and win is hidden (p.s any one else notice that a lot of big money including Warren Buffett, are out there on a buying spree while others run and hide.........)
right .. buying right is critical right now .. and many opportunities await the prepared .. such as those prepared by you, Don !!
 

GarthChapman

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QUOTE (OlegP @ Sep 20 2008, 06:25 PM) Secured lines of credit are based on the equity in your house, so to what I said above add a factor of what area you live in. If house values start going down substantially, do not be surprised if the bank chooses to reduce your credit limit, or in some cases close this line down.

Oleg Pereslegin

Great post!

It makes me wonder what banks will be doing with their mortgages that also contain a LOC element (Scotia Step, BMO Readiline, CIBC Matrix, etc) whereby the LOC grows as mortgage is paid down. Many investors have these mortgages on their revenue properties.

Thank you!
 

Thomas Beyer

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QUOTE (GarthChapman @ Sep 21 2008, 10:17 AM)
Great post!



It makes me wonder what banks will be doing with their mortgages that also contain a LOC element (Scotia Step, BMO Readiline, CIBC Matrix, etc) whereby the LOC grows as mortgage is paid down. Many investors have these mortgages on their revenue properties.



Thank you!




Expect banks to take a harder look at these .. both existing ones and new ones .. no need to panic in Canada .. but being prepared ..



The word for this DELEVERAGING !!



The era of cheap and highly levered money is over for the time being .. I would not be surprised if CMHC goes lower than 95% for non-owner occupied homes .. maybe even 85% like is common for commercial apartment buildings !!



Here are some comments from experts in the field re last week's "shock and awe" in the financial system:



"I don't think anybody should be under the illusion that the process of deleveraging will stop... It will continue in an orderly way," George Magnus, economic advisor to UBS, said.



"Policymakers are responding in a piecemeal fashion so far but the cost of intervention is getting bigger and the reaction time faster -- we should expect much more financial shock and awe to come," said Neil Dwane, chief investment officer for Europe at asset management firm RCM. "It seems obvious to conclude that the deleveraging must and will continue alongside both aggressive recapitalizations of banks and also the restructuring of the financial industry, post AIG and Lehman/Merrills."
 

Thomas Beyer

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QUOTE (GarthChapman @ Sep 21 2008, 10:17 AM)
Great post!



It makes me wonder what banks will be doing with their mortgages that also contain a LOC element (Scotia Step, BMO Readiline, CIBC Matrix, etc) whereby the LOC grows as mortgage is paid down. Many investors have these mortgages on their revenue properties.



Thank you!


many lenders have now eliminated prime minus mortgages such as prime -0.6% or prime - 1% due to low prime rate .. best rate we can get right now is 5.25% .. which is prime PLUS 1% .. UP 1% from even 6 weeks ago despite prime rate drop ..



true, you mortgage brokers out there ? what are some available mortgages right now (as of mid October 2008) ???



some CMHC money is available sub 5% for multi-family still !! what about residential single family / TH / condos ?
 

PeterKinchMortgageTeam

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QUOTE (thomasbeyer2000 @ Oct 20 2008, 11:28 AM)
many lenders have now eliminated prime minus mortgages such as prime -0.6% or prime - 1% due to low prime rate .. best rate we can get right now is 5.25% .. which is prime PLUS 1% .. UP 1% from even 6 weeks ago despite prime rate drop ..



true, you mortgage brokers out there ? what are some available mortgages right now (as of mid October 2008) ???



some CMHC money is available sub 5% for multi-family still !! what about residential single family / TH / condos ?






Right Thomas - The prime minus mortgages are no longer. The best out there open or closed is prime + 1% (some are even more). Also, a couple of the lenders have actually done away with thier open products as well.



On the up side, there are good rates being offered on short fixed terms such as 1 or 2 year terms.
 
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