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Economic Predictions 2010

housingrental

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I think my post contradicts most others... ?



QUOTE (gwasser @ Dec 20 2009, 02:26 PM) Gentlemen this is becoming boring!

Witht he exception of Jim (Rickson9), we all seem to think more or less the same! How unlikely!
Are we thinking so similar because we are all great minds or are we sheep?
 

Rickson9

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QUOTE (ThomasBeyer @ Dec 18 2009, 12:13 PM) today`s rates are low 4% .. this would be a 50% increase .. elaborate why do you think this will happen as 5 and 10 year bonds TODAY are barely 1% higher than 1 or 2 year money ..

My rational is: because this is a for-fun thread about predictions (which I consider to be a waste of time, but will humour this thread with).
 

fumbrunner

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I dont think we are out of the woods yet.


/waiting for the derivatives crash...
 

gwasser

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QUOTE (housingrental @ Dec 20 2009, 07:18 PM) I think my post contradicts most others... ?


Sorry, Adam.
 

EdRenkema

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QUOTE (gwasser @ Dec 21 2009, 06:28 PM) Sorry, Adam.


Adam strives to be known as the consumate contrarion...
 

wgraham

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Wow....how many REIN members and Non-REIN members on this discussion board and only a handful have actual predictions for next year!!! Are we investors or do we just ride whatever wave comes our way and let the luckiest "investor" win?

I can barely believe that only six people have some real predictions for 2010. Maybe you are all waiting to see what Don says in January? Come on folks.....lets put some skin in this game and tell us what your market will or will not do in 2010!

To the ones who don`t think predictions are valid.......happy investing and I wish you all of the luck in the world!

I can see it now......Don will make some predictions about 2010. a year will go by and if he is wrong there will be an entire chorus chirping about how he was wrong. This will be the same people who didn`t or wouldn`t put any of their own predictions out there. So I throw down the gauntlet right now.....those who make predictions are entitled to ridicule other predictions a year from now.....those with no predictions shouldn`t have any right to say boo when a year goes by and the "experts" were wrong.
 

Nir

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QUOTE (wgraham @ Dec 21 2009, 09:24 PM) Wow....how many REIN members and Non-REIN members on this discussion board and only a handful have actual predictions for next year!!! Are we investors or do we just ride whatever wave comes our way and let the luckiest "investor" win?

I can barely believe that only six people have some real predictions for 2010. Maybe you are all waiting to see what Don says in January? Come on folks.....lets put some skin in this game and tell us what your market will or will not do in 2010!

To the ones who don`t think predictions are valid.......happy investing and I wish you all of the luck in the world!

I can see it now......Don will make some predictions about 2010. a year will go by and if he is wrong there will be an entire chorus chirping about how he was wrong. This will be the same people who didn`t or wouldn`t put any of their own predictions out there. So I throw down the gauntlet right now.....those who make predictions are entitled to ridicule other predictions a year from now.....those with no predictions shouldn`t have any right to say boo when a year goes by and the "experts" were wrong.

Hi Wade, to answer your question, don`t be so surprised many are not interested in guessing. I do not think it is that important to "know" (predict) what will be the price trend next year.
Trust me many investors like me who plan to sell in 5, 10 or even 20 years don`t care whether prices will go down or up 10 % next year.
Why do you think I invest in RE and not in stocks!? Exactly for that reason - to sleep well at night without the need to read the paper every day see what happened to my money.
no one on earth can professionally predict what RE prices will be 20 years from now. but that`s when I hope to sell. of course I will not blame Don for being wrong. not only because anyone can make mistakes but also because as mentioned I don`t care that much. For many investors cash flow is (10 times) more important. Lastly, there are great opportunities in up and down markets - another good reason not to worry about price trends!

Cheers.
 

housingrental

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Excellent I like this

QUOTE (wgraham @ Dec 21 2009, 10:24 PM) those who make predictions are entitled to ridicule other predictions a year from now....
 

wgraham

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QUOTE (investmart @ Dec 22 2009, 12:10 PM) Hi Wade, to answer your question, don`t be so surprised many are not interested in guessing. I do not think it is that important to "know" (predict) what will be the price trend next year.
Trust me many investors like me who plan to sell in 5, 10 or even 20 years don`t care whether prices will go down or up 10 % next year.
Why do you think I invest in RE and not in stocks!? Exactly for that reason - to sleep well at night without the need to read the paper every day see what happened to my money.
no one on earth can professionally predict what RE prices will be 20 years from now. but that`s when I hope to sell. of course I will not blame Don for being wrong. not only because anyone can make mistakes but also because as mentioned I don`t care that much. For many investors cash flow is (10 times) more important. Lastly, there are great opportunities in up and down markets - another good reason not to worry about price trends!

Cheers.



I don`t think that being a long term investor gives you the right to not look to the year ahead. Even with a long term view it is important to budget for cash flow, vacancy, repairs, acquisitions, liquidations etc!!

I can certainly professionally predict 2010. In fact, as a professional I think it is part of my job!! My investors come to me because I have a clearer picture than they do. They come to me because I know how to operate my business next year and five years from now based on my predictions.

Now, will I be 100% accurate....of course not! But I will make adjustments to my operations and how I run my company based on my predictions. For example, I have most of my leases coming up late in 2010 because that is when I think I will have the best opportunity to raise my rents. I am looking to acquire 4 new assets in the next 3 months because I think we are going to see I small run up in values and rents in the next 12 months.

I just don`t buy into the "predictions are irrelevant" school of thought and I don`t think most professionals do either.
 

Rickson9

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QUOTE (wgraham @ Dec 22 2009, 04:22 PM) I just don`t buy into the "predictions are irrelevant" school of thought and I don`t think most professionals do either.

Speaking only for myself I don`t care if a person values predictions nor do I care if "most professionals" do (or do not).

I just know two things:
1. Predictions are irrelevant to me
2. Predictions have not been necessary for me to achieve success

Of course I`m only speaking for myself. What I think most professionals do or do not isn`t important to me.
 

Rickson9

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QUOTE (investmart @ Dec 22 2009, 02:10 PM) Why do you think I invest in RE and not in stocks!? Exactly for that reason - to sleep well at night without the need to read the paper every day see what happened to my money.

I just wanted to point out that this was an incorrect generalization. I invest in stocks and I sleep well at night. I also don`t read the paper every day to see what happened to my money.

In my opinion both stocks and RE investing have different advantages and disadvantages. Since I have been modestly successful in investing in both asset classes, I have directly experienced the pros and cons of each on my portfolio.

To go through all the pros and cons of each asset class would be a tedius (and ultimately pointless) exercise so I won`t. "Invest in whatever asset class that you`re comfortable with" is probably a good rule to follow.
 

bizaro86

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QUOTE (gwasser @ Dec 15 2009, 08:11 PM) Most promising is the oil sector, not only heavy oil but also old moderate quality older oil pools with low primary recovery rates.

This is the only prediction in the thread I feel qualified to comment on.


I also agree with it extremely strongly. My stock market investing in oil and gas companies focuses on ones that have large oil resources, that are not yet reserves due to lack of technology/infrastructure.

For example, the ideal oil company to me is one that has properties with high OOIP (original oil in place) but low recovery factor. (The % of the original oil in the ground that has come out).

I strongly believe that technology (and prices!) are advancing at a rate that will allow us to produce much of that OOIP economically, and currently companies aren`t getting credit for it.

Unfortunately, my favourite example of this (Harvest Energy) got taken over by a Korean state oil company earlier this year, so I`m on the hunt for new prospects to spend that money within the oil and gas industry.

Michael
 

gwasser

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QUOTE (bizaro86 @ Dec 22 2009, 03:25 PM) This is the only prediction in the thread I feel qualified to comment on.


I also agree with it extremely strongly. My stock market investing in oil and gas companies focuses on ones that have large oil resources, that are not yet reserves due to lack of technology/infrastructure.

For example, the ideal oil company to me is one that has properties with high OOIP (original oil in place) but low recovery factor. (The % of the original oil in the ground that has come out).


Michael

Check out NAL energy they are going back into old Cardium pools using new technology. The are somewhat akin to Crescent Point in Saskatchewan. The Cardium is of relative poor reservoir quality so NAL thinks that multizone frac`ing may work.
 

gwasser

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QUOTE (Rickson9 @ Dec 22 2009, 02:33 PM) I just wanted to point out that this was an incorrect generalization. I invest in stocks and I sleep well at night. I also don`t read the paper every day to see what happened to my money.

In my opinion both stocks and RE investing have different advantages and disadvantages. Since I have been modestly successful in investing in both asset classes, I have directly experienced the pros and cons of each on my portfolio.

To go through all the pros and cons of each asset class would be a tedius (and ultimately pointless) exercise so I won`t. "Invest in whatever asset class that you`re comfortable with" is probably a good rule to follow.

I agree with Jim`s point that both real estate and stocks (or better paper securities) are good investments and both belong in a diversified portfolio. I do disagree with Jim where it concerns economic forecasts - recognizing new economic trends is essential for an investor. For example, recognizing peak oil and the effects of BRIC countries on commodities, I invested big in oil and gas. I bought COS.UN for $18$ before the 5-way split (current costbase: $3 per share) and just the dividends have paid out the purchase costs several times over. I bought Senior Assisted housing in Calgary and they are my price real estate. I also bought recreational properties both condos and bare land - right the results are very mediocre but I am, just like the senior assisted housing banking on baby boomers and a seemingly ever expanding Alberta population. Because of heavy oil, I invested in a few Edmonton apartments and profited quite decently.

I invested in Brookfield (still do), Power Corp, Power Financial, Canadian Banks because of my optimism for Canada as a resource-powerhouse and the superior management quality of many of these companies - although Manulife was a disappointment.

Smartphones comprise now 10% or so of the wireless market, i.e. they are reaching a `tipping point` just prior to major market share growth (I hope). So I bought RIM at about half the price it was a short while ago. Same would be for Apple but I am a Bill Gates fan...

Because of my understanding of economic trends and stock market behaviour, I had the fortitude not to sell of in the last down turn. Instead I bought. Combined with real estate investments, I am nearly recovered in net worth compared with the peak in 2009 - not bad he? Just because I follow the economy and I am trying to guess what direction we`re going and what the new trends are.

Right now I am betting on a recovery in the U.S. and world economy. I bought Microsoft for $12-18 per share and a ridiculous P/E of 9, compare that to Apple`s P/E or that of Google. I bought J&J, GE and of course I have been buying gold from as low as $278 because I foresaw its return.

Yes forecasting scenarios not only help in risk management (see one of my previous posts in this stream), it also help me weight my diversified portfolio towards the winners. So, Jim, I quite fervently disagree with you about forecasting. You may claim that your success is prove that you are right, so then I must be even more right (hahaha).

An old geologist story, then I stop. To drill wells into oil and gas pools you need quite a bit of luck. Geologists tend to create or reconstruct a lot of models which they hope are right. But it is kind of like trying to hit the Bow river with a pebble thrown from a plane flying 5000 feet high on a cloudy day. Many geologists claim(ed) when hitting an oil pool that that proved their theories were right. Of course, the next hole drilled based on the same theory came in dry. It is about a combination of luck and skill (like playing cards) - not about having the perfectly correct model that one finds oil and gas. Same with investing, just because we are `successfull` does not mean we`re right and this includes myself.
 

JohnS

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QUOTE (Rickson9 @ Dec 22 2009, 04:29 PM) I just know two things:
1. Predictions are irrelevant to me
2. Predictions have not been necessary for me to achieve success


I`m pretty sure this isn`t the case. I`m pretty sure you`re using predictions all the time - they just might not be as refined as those of others. By that I mean that you might not be putting numbers and percentages to your predictions, but that doesn`t mean that you`re not using predictions.

I`m willing to bet that your predictions include....
1) Real estate will continue to be a good investment.
2) In X years, your properties will be worth more than they are now.
3) In the future, you will increase the rents on your properties.
4) Interest rates will go up from their current, historic lows.
5) The cities you`re investing in will do better than many other cities in Canada.
6) Your mortgages will get paid down, probably by X amount.
7) In X years, your properties could be paid off.
8) You will continue to receive positive cashflow from your properties.
9) This cashflow will increase as the years go by.
10) Your investments will support your quality of life in X years.

I mean, why would you invest if you didn`t believe that every one of those 10 predictions would come true? So, I believe you do use predictions...you just don`t think it`s useful for you to predict the gain that you`ll be making in the next 12 months.

Have a good one, all!

JohnS
 

bizaro86

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QUOTE (gwasser @ Dec 22 2009, 07:50 PM) Many geologists claim(ed) when hitting an oil pool that that proved their theories were right.
Not only that they were right, but that they were both brilliant and handsome, and should be running the whole operation.

QUOTE (gwasser @ Dec 22 2009, 07:50 PM) Of course, the next hole drilled based on the same theory came in dry.
But wasn`t that the drilling engineer`s fault?


Michael
 

gwasser

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QUOTE (bizaro86 @ Dec 23 2009, 10:59 AM) Not only that they were right, but that they were both brilliant and handsome, and should be running the whole operation.


But wasn`t that the drilling engineer`s fault?


Michael


Of course, Michael. It is nearly always the drilling engineer`s fault. They mess up the hole forever. And if it is not them then it are these completions guys with their damn frac`s.
Oh, I nearly forgot to blame facilities (the last resort for blame - except for complaining that land bought in the wrong township).
 

Rickson9

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QUOTE (gwasser @ Dec 22 2009, 09:50 PM) So, Jim, I quite fervently disagree with you about forecasting. You may claim that your success is prove that you are right, so then I must be even more right (hahaha).

We will have to agree to disagree. Cheers!
 

Rickson9

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QUOTE (JohnS @ Dec 23 2009, 03:37 AM) I`m pretty sure this isn`t the case. I`m pretty sure you`re using predictions all the time - they just might not be as refined as those of others. By that I mean that you might not be putting numbers and percentages to your predictions, but that doesn`t mean that you`re not using predictions.

I`m willing to bet that your predictions include....
1) Real estate will continue to be a good investment.
2) In X years, your properties will be worth more than they are now.
3) In the future, you will increase the rents on your properties.
4) Interest rates will go up from their current, historic lows.
5) The cities you`re investing in will do better than many other cities in Canada.
6) Your mortgages will get paid down, probably by X amount.
7) In X years, your properties could be paid off.
8) You will continue to receive positive cashflow from your properties.
9) This cashflow will increase as the years go by.
10) Your investments will support your quality of life in X years.

I mean, why would you invest if you didn`t believe that every one of those 10 predictions would come true? So, I believe you do use predictions...you just don`t think it`s useful for you to predict the gain that you`ll be making in the next 12 months.

Have a good one, all!

JohnS

I appreciate the reply. We will have to agree to disagree. Best regards.
 
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