CREA and Competition Board

[luckyluciano]

If what you are fantasising about is FREE access to the MLS data which I have partly paid for, (And you have not!) You may as well dream about its` destruction therefore destroying the market value of your property. If you don`t believe me, talk to someone in Europe where their property often stays on the market for months and years and often in a motivated sale situation is often sold for 1/2 price because of the lack of such an efficient system. Prersident of CREA also said he has done everything to make the raving ignorant happy, everything but SHUTTING DOWN THE MLS.




e=`spark1` date=`Mar 23 2010, 10:11 PM` post=`82175`] Finally the long awaiting era of realtor`s monopoly for information coming to an end. It is great news - more choices for consumers. I understand why realtors are so upset, but now time is different (internet, hi-tech age!) and many things consumers can do themselves. Home prices are also different. Today`s words from the CREA president was impressive. He said the changes "wouldn`t make sense to anyone who wasn`t a real estate agent". Feel the attitude?

 

[aiden1983]

LOL I totally agree. I have met a ton of Realtors and for the CREA president to say that all Realtors are more capable to learn that I am is just ridiculous. All of the Realtors that are complaining on here are obviously afraid that the monopoly is over. If Realtors thought that this was not going to change anything then they would just ignore it.

Don`t get me wrong I would definitely use a Realtor even if I had all the info on MLS as I have met two (I am sure there are many more but I have personally met two) Realtors in Calgary which are true professional and earn every penny they make. <-IMO

QUOTE (spark1 @ Mar 23 2010, 09:11 PM) Finally the long awaiting era of Realtor`s monopoly for information coming to an end. It is great news - more choices for consumers.

I understand why realtors are so upset, but now time is different (internet, hi-tech age!) and many things consumers can do themselves. Home prices are also different.


Today`s words from the CREA president was impressive. He said the changes "wouldn`t make sense to anyone who wasn`t a real estate agent". Feel the attitude?

 

[aiden1983]

I don`t know where in Europe you are talking about but in England and Wales (I believe the rest of the UK also) they do not have a MLS and there houses have a high value. The only reason for houses staying on the market for "months or years" (which is untrue in England and Wales) is because of housing chains (banks make sure your house is sold prior to being able to close on your house). The houses are "sold" fairly quickly but they could remain in escrow for months. My family has houses in both England and Wales and find that there are pros and cons to both systems. By saying that the destruction of the MLS will destroy the market value of our property is idiotic for many reasons. You have basically stated that the main one is saying that MLS has control over the prices and keeps them artificially high (which is a monopoly).

QUOTE (luckyluciano @ Mar 24 2010, 05:26 AM) If what you are fantasising about is FREE access to the MLS data which I have partly paid for, (And you have not!) You may as well dream about its` destruction therefore destroying the market value of your property. If you don`t believe me, talk to someone in Europe where their property often stays on the market for months and years and often in a motivated sale situation is often sold for 1/2 price because of the lack of such an efficient system. Prersident of CREA also said he has done everything to make the raving ignorant happy, everything but SHUTTING DOWN THE MLS.




e=`spark1` date=`Mar 23 2010, 10:11 PM` post=`82175`] Finally the long awaiting era of realtor`s monopoly for information coming to an end. It is great news - more choices for consumers. I understand why realtors are so upset, but now time is different (internet, hi-tech age!) and many things consumers can do themselves. Home prices are also different. Today`s words from the CREA president was impressive. He said the changes "wouldn`t make sense to anyone who wasn`t a real estate agent". Feel the attitude?

 

[spark1]

Luckyluciano, please cool down. I do not want FREE access to MLS. I am ready to pay a fair market value for comps and service what I need. For example, I do not need a taxi service in my realtor’s BMW, and I can show my house myself and I want to talk directly to the buyer and etc. Somebody needs a taxi service – please charge him more.



The irony is that the realtor never works in the best buyer’s or seller’s interests he always wants a quick deal.



Realtors I met on the REIN meetings are great, but it is a microscopic percentage of the profession. Most realtors in real life are uneducated, greedy, pushy salespersons and 9 out of 10 are liars. That is my personal experience.



I want competition and choices. For many years CREA behaves monopolistically and I fully support what the federal government pursues.

 

[RedlineBrett]

QUOTE (wealthyboomer @ Mar 23 2010, 01:57 PM) Now you`re psychic?

No, but I go to a lot of meetings you don`t.

 

[Cargren]

QUOTE (aiden1983 @ Mar 23 2010, 12:12 PM) So you are saying the Realtors will look out for themselves...... Same thing for a buyer paying more for a house then. When a buyer agent makes money on how much you spend it feels a little bit of a gray area for some people. Again a good Realtor I would have no issue with but it is all the other Realtors which make me think this industry is a lot like the used car industry. <- Only my opinion on some of the Realtors I have met but definitely not all as I know some great ones.Of course, I`m saying that Realtors look out for themselves! And their families. You make this sound bad. Are they not wise to do so? Any Realtor that doesn`t, won`t stay in business very long. That is true for anybody in business for that matter. BUT that does not mean they shouldn`t look out for their clients` interests too. Looking out for their client`s interest is what puts one Realtor ahead of others.

But you didn`t answer my question: which home would you show to a client? Would you drive around all day showing homes to clients when there is nothing in it for you? Or would you be a little more motivated to take them to homes where you get paid a commission? I am very interested in your answer, as I may be interested in JV partners who don`t look out for themselves.

 

[RedlineBrett]

QUOTE (spark1 @ Mar 24 2010, 07:26 AM) The irony is that the realtor never works in the best buyer`s or seller`s interests he always wants a quick deal.

I want competition and choices. For many years CREA behaves monopolistically and I fully support what the federal government pursues.

Wow making a few assumptions there aren`t we? What do you do for a living? I`d like to crap on your profession please.

Some realtors are bad just like some doctors, lawyers, charities are bad... If the CB wins are you going to send them after the law society or the canadian accounting association to stop the monopoly lawyers have on closing deals and accountants have on doing taxes?

How dare they use their expertise, professional designations and business systems to leverage better fees for themselves! Monopoly I say! All an accountant does is plug my numbers into quickbooks and my lawyer has his paralegal do everything! I want cheaper fees! waa waa waa!

You already have competition and choices. You can choose from 1000s of different agents in your local market or you can pick from dozens of FSBO options. You can suggest to your agent that he sell your house for a $1 fee and that you want to do all your own negotiating and showings and he would be within CREA rules to allow you to do so. Customer status and seller`s rights reserved options have been around for years.

 

[Cargren]

QUOTE (aiden1983 @ Mar 23 2010, 12:38 PM) One house vs every house in Canada is a little different. When you become that large you become a target, just look at Google, and Microsoft.

Yes, I agree "large" attracts attention. But I was talking about a concept. A non-public entity that has invested time and money in something, being forced to share all this for free. Don`t get me wrong, I would like to access this info freely as well. I just do not feel it is my God-given right to demand it.

By the way, if you do get some info on a fantastic deal could you please share it with me?

 

[aiden1983]

This is exactly my point. A buyer with access to all the info that a Realtor has will be better off than those without. If I was a Realtor I would show the house that best fits the needs of my customers as living with my self is much more important than making money. Since there is this gray area then wouldn`t it make sense that the buyer pay for the services that he/she requires? If I was a Realtor I would take the MLS database and do statistical analysis in order to treat the housing market more like the stock markets to better inform customers (and I would charge for the info and forecasts). Really there is little to no innovation in regards to Realtors (as far as I can see). Maybe I just don`t meet enough great Realtors, or maybe you should make the criteria for becoming a Realtor much higher in order to weed out the "lazy" Realtors.QUOTE (Cargren @ Mar 24 2010, 10:47 AM) Of course, I`m saying that Realtors look out for themselves! And their families. You make this sound bad. Are they not wise to do so? Any Realtor that doesn`t, won`t stay in business very long. That is true for anybody in business for that matter. BUT that does not mean they shouldn`t look out for their clients` interests too. Looking out for their client`s interest is what puts one Realtor ahead of others.

But you didn`t answer my question: which home would you show to a client? Would you drive around all day showing homes to clients when there is nothing in it for you? Or would you be a little more motivated to take them to homes where you get paid a commission? I am very interested in your answer, as I may be interested in JV partners who don`t look out for themselves.

 

[Cargren]

[quote name=`spark1` date=`Mar 24 2010, 07:26 AM` post=`82200`]
I want competition and choices.

Hi Spark,

I don`t know where you live, but you already have these! Have you walked by those magazine stands in front of your local groceriy store? Have you been on the internet? There are hundreds of alternatives to MLS for both buyers and sellers. Just because MLS has the largest and best source of information doesn`t mean they should give it away for nothing or that no one else is allowed to compete against them.

I don`t even know why I`m posting on this thread. I am neither a realtor nor a supporter of either side in this issue. I just don`t understand why anyone would assume they should demand or think they have a right to info that an individual or a private entity has accumulated using their own funds. So signing off....

 

[RedlineBrett]

QUOTE (aiden1983 @ Mar 24 2010, 10:01 AM) If I was a Realtor I would take the MLS database and do statistical analysis in order to treat the housing market more like the stock markets to better inform customers (and charge for the info and forecasts).

I do this every month and list it on my website for certain neighborhoods in Calgary. Real estate sales data cannot be boiled down like stocks can. Look at the variability in these graphs and you will see what I mean. Due to lack of data I had to create a smoothing line to get any indication of the market for some property types in certain communities.

http://www.redlinerealestate.ca/invest-calgary.php

If you want the numbers on a specific piece of property you simply have to get down and dirty and look at the +/- of various comparables. Real estate is not an armchair business!

 

[aiden1983]

I am not saying that it should be free. I would be happy to pay a reasonable amount for the information I require, but why would the house I am buying have any effect on the cost of me accessing the information? Why would it cost more for me to have access to info when I am selling a $1 million house vs a $100K house?

QUOTE (Cargren @ Mar 24 2010, 10:59 AM) Yes, I agree "large" attracts attention. But I was talking about a concept. A non-public entity that has invested time and money in something, being forced to share all this for free. Don`t get me wrong, I would like to access this info freely as well. I just do not feel it is my God-given right to demand it.

By the way, if you do get some info on a fantastic deal could you please share it with me?

 

[aiden1983]

Posting the house sales for a month or the average sales for the month is not really what I was thinking of doing. I would be much more detailed and if I would like to do an analysis of house prices for a 2 Bed/2 Bath condo in Calgary vs the historic prices of a SFH in Sudbury then I should be able to do so. Since it is an investment I should be able to have access to as much info as I feel comfortable with. Honestly why would this be such a bad thing if I was to have access to information? Unless you are hiding something then I see no harm. If I want to spend 100 hours a week predicting the market then I should be allowed to do so.

QUOTE (RedlineBrett @ Mar 24 2010, 11:16 AM) I do this every month and list it on my website for certain neighborhoods in Calgary. Real estate sales data cannot be boiled down like stocks can. Look at the variability in these graphs and you will see what I mean. Due to lack of data I had to create a smoothing line to get any indication of the market for some property types in certain communities.

http://www.redlinerealestate.ca/invest-calgary.php

If you want the numbers on a specific piece of property you simply have to get down and dirty and look at the +/- of various comparables. Real estate is not an armchair business!

 

[RedlineBrett]

QUOTE (aiden1983 @ Mar 24 2010, 10:30 AM) I would be much more detailed and if I would like to do an analysis of house prices for a 2 Bed/2 Bath condo in Calgary vs the historic prices of a SFH in Sudbury then I should be able to do so. Since it is an investment I should be able to have access to as much info as I feel confortable with. Honestly why would this be such a bad thing if I was to have access to information? Unless you are hiding something then I see no harm.

You talk like someone has an obligation to provide all this to you. Well the data is gathered and administered privately... so if you want it you have to use it according to the terms of the people that work and pay to obtain it. Remember the golden rule.

Your request may seem benign but others may not have the same intentions. CREA wants control over how the data is accessed and used and they get this by setting out rules for it`s membership. For example I`m not allowed to show sold prices of individual houses on my own private website.

Not that it will make you feel any better but you`d find very little useful trends in that - believe me I`ve looked. I`ve done pivot tables and regressions on tonnes of stuff... the specific market-wide data trends all look very similar to the overall market data and most local boards publish the macro-sales data monthly. But none of that matters because you can`t buy a share in calgary real estate... you can only buy a specific property that needs another level of due-diligence and analysis. The really useful tool of the database is to do local comparable analysis of specific properties.

 

[aiden1983]

Just because you can`t find trends doesn`t mean that others can`t forecast a little bit better than you or I

. I am just stating what I would like to see, which for the record is access to advertising on MLS and access to their database. Both of which may or may not come true one day, but it is what I would love to see.

QUOTE (RedlineBrett @ Mar 24 2010, 11:50 AM) You talk like someone has an obligation to provide all this to you. Well the data is gathered and administered privately... so if you want it you have to use it according to the terms of the people that work and pay to obtain it. Remember the golden rule.

Your request may seem benign but others may not have the same intentions. CREA wants control over how the data is accessed and used and they get this by setting out rules for it`s membership. For example I`m not allowed to show sold prices of individual houses on my own private website.

Not that it will make you feel any better but you`d find very little useful trends in that - believe me I`ve looked. I`ve done pivot tables and regressions on tonnes of stuff... the specific market-wide data trends all look very similar to the overall market data and most local boards publish the macro-sales data monthly. But none of that matters because you can`t buy a share in calgary real estate... you can only buy a specific property that needs another level of due-diligence and analysis. The really useful tool of the database is to do local comparable analysis of specific properties.

 

[gwasser]

QUOTE (Cargren @ Mar 24 2010, 10:47 AM) But you didn`t answer my question: which home would you show to a client? Would you drive around all day showing homes to clients when there is nothing in it for you? Or would you be a little more motivated to take them to homes where you get paid a commission? I am very interested in your answer, as I may be interested in JV partners who don`t look out for themselves.

Realtors in Alberta and elsewhere probably too, have the fiduciary duty and are required by law to act in the best interest of their clients, up to the point that they have their clients interest ahead of their own. So they cannot refuse or hide houses from you based on commissions the may collect.

This you may argue is `theory` and I would tend to agree. However, there is nearly always a `however`. However, these days buyers are asked to sign an exclusive buyers-brokerage agreement` that spells out the terms of cooperation and/or services provided/required by both parties.

This contract defines the commissions being charged by the buyer`s realtor and the source of the commission money. It states that in the first place, commissions are paid by the seller. BUT the source may also be completely or in part the buyer in case a property is bought with lower commissions such as from builders and FSBOs (for-sale-buy-owner). With this clause, realtors have absolutely no reason to skip FSBOs or new builders. They will help you in whatever you buy.

By accepting this clause, you admit that the realtor is due to be compensated for his services and as stated many times, even the commission rates or flat commissions can be negotiated and spelled out differently from the often used clause: "3.5% on the first $100,000 and 1.5% on the remainder of the purchase price of the acquired property".

So all this ballyhooing about monopolies and forced pricing is utter nonsence. It is true, I absolutely have to confess that the realtor has to make a living and may not be willing to work for the commission you offer, especially if he is expected to show 30 houses and make 80 offers

. However, that is what a free market is all about.

 

[gwasser]

QUOTE (aiden1983 @ Mar 24 2010, 11:22 AM) I am not saying that it should be free. I would be happy to pay a reasonable amount for the information I require, but why would the house I am buying have any effect on the cost of me accessing the information? Why would it cost more for me to have access to info when I am selling a $1 million house vs a $100K house?

The price to do what you want is membership to a real estate board. Or you could hire a realtor to ask him for the information, it probably is provided to you for free. It is just not you who sits behind the keyboard. If you asked a realtor to do searches and it cost him/her a lot of time and you don`t use the realtor when buying, he may want to be paid for his time.

Don`t ask a Realtor though about who bought or sold a particular place because the data in MLS is bound to the privacy act. Neither ask a realtor for a list of people and their addresses whose listing are expired. Doing that is considered such an enormous breach of privacy that the realtor could lose his/her license.

The privacy act is one of the big reasons, MLS data could not indiscriminately be released to the public. I heard one very good analogy. A divorcee learns the ex-spouse has sold a property and asks the realtor for how much it sold and when? I am sure you can figure out why the realtor can not reveal that!

 

[JohnS]

QUOTE (aiden1983 @ Mar 24 2010, 01:22 PM) I am not saying that it should be free. I would be happy to pay a reasonable amount for the information I require, but why would the house I am buying have any effect on the cost of me accessing the information? Why would it cost more for me to have access to info when I am selling a $1 million house vs a $100K house?


As other (non-realtors) on here have mentioned, we`d all like to have instant access to all the information we want, and get it for free...or for whatever price we each individually deem to be "reasonable". The problem, though, is that we all have our own ideas of what "reasonable" is. On top of that, I`m pretty sure that the majority of the info on the MLS is public knowledge (but I`m sure some realtors will correct me if I`m wrong on this). The problem, though, is that you have to pay a lot to access it. Can`t I go and pull title on any property to find out what it sold for down at city hall? Of course, it`ll cost me at least $25 per house, so if I`m trying to establish comparables, it`ll quickly get pretty expensive.

But all of that info is already accessible. The realtors, however, have already paid to consolidate the vast majority of that info into one database, so it stands to reason that they should be able to dictate who they want to share that info with, and under what terms.

Personally, I think it all comes down to the rules of the game. I might not like rule X of (insert your favourite sport here), but if I want to play that sport, I have to live by those rules. I can`t complain to the ref that I don`t like that rule (and I`ve tried this...it doesn`t work), and get it changed. Those are the rules, and there is a reasonable rationale behind them. Whether you agree with that rationale isn`t really relevant. It exists, as do the rules, so just eliminate the horrible realtors that you`ve met from your life, and find better ones that want to help you succeed. (The same way I stack my volleyball team with better players!)


Have a good one, all!

JohnS

 

[JamesB]

QUOTE (aiden1983 @ Mar 23 2010, 01:49 PM) I would love to be able to see all of the information that the Realtors have access too, as I believe I would be more proactive in research then any Realtor who would help me find a house. Realtors have access to DOM, past sales prices, lot description, and a ton of other info which I would love to have access to without having to ask a Realtor. I never really considered talking to the owner of the house prior to this but now I think about it, I think I would really like too. I think this is about time that things change so I am ecstatic.

Also I think that it will rid this industry of a lot of terrible Realtors. I hope that the good Realtors will be able to still make a good living.

You can easily get all the comps and sales history of the house from the land registry. Anyone can. you have to pay for each pull, but the information is available to the public.

 

[JamesB]

QUOTE (Cargren @ Mar 23 2010, 02:57 PM) While I dislike paying the big fee when I`m selling (just like most), I agree with Brett. Most buyers would want to work through an agent, but if every seller, or even most, out there decides to list their home for the flat fee who will pay the buyers agent? It will now have to the buyer.

And consider this: as an agent who`s home would you show? The seller`s who isn`t paying you a dime or the seller`s who paying the fee?

Actually, a realtor has to show you the home regardless of the comission that is offered by the seller. It is up to the buyer to make up any difference between the agreed upon rate and what the seller is offering.